Beyond Lead Acid Batteries

[gerald.jackson]

Bob,

Since Altairnano was at the battery summit I attended, I have some of their literature.  Most of the data was for their 11 AH cell.  They seem to be confident that their batteries will operate at 10C pretty much indefinitely, which corresponds to 500 Amps for 6 minutes for their 50 AH cell.  At a nominal cell voltage of 2.3 V, this corresponds to a peak power of 1.15 kW/cell.  Let us say that your electric car has a 144 V input-voltage controller.  This means you need 63 cells to generate this input voltage.  At $210/cell, you are spending $13,000 for 7.2 kWh of stored energy.  I would think that you need at least double this range, so now we are talking about $26,000.  When you include cables, connectors, diagnostics, etc... you are talking $30,000 for a little better than 1/4 the range of the Tesla Roadster.  The lithium titanate batteries are certainly safer, but are quoted to be lower capacity and higher cost ... the above calculation seems to bear out those quotes.

To answer your question, I can certainly set up a test stand for lithium-ion batteries to test their performance limits.  The discharge would be on the order of 6 minutes to simulate peak discharge current requested by a typical motor controller.

Thanks for the interesting discussions.
Gerry

[miodrag.zubic]

Jerry,

Has the Power Point presentation from the last meeting been posted anywhere yet. It was a excellent one and so I am intested in having it as a reference.

Thanks

[robert.wood]

The Altair guys have not sent a spec sheet on the cells.  Do you have dimensions and weight of the cells?

Thanks, Bob

[robert.wood]

Ted,

During our last EV club meeting, you mentioned you could get Valence Lithium Batteries.  Would you please post specs and prices regarding the battery cells.

I did end up getting a quote for Saft America for large Ni-Cd batteries, but have come to the conclusion that they are not reliable, are high cost and have low life cycle.  Saft will not sell me Ni-MH or Li-ION.

[gerald.jackson]

Bob,

Sorry, but they do not have any practical data in their talk, like dimensions and weight.

Gerry Jackson

[pat.mitchell]

The Altair guys have not sent a spec sheet on the cells.  Do you have dimensions and weight of the cells?

Thanks, Bob

Bob,
Make one up.
I do believe they are still open to possible suggestions because they haven't finnished their product for the market yet.

[robert.wood]

EnerDel battery packs.

I had previously reported that I was waiting on a reply from EnerDel regarding specs and prices.

As a follow-up I emailed Ulrik Grape, the EnerDel CEO I did get a repsonse from the EnerDel Business Development Manager.

"Our company strategic focus is to become a leading developer and manufacturer of advanced, safe, high-performance, high-volume, Li-ion power systems for the automotive market and for related markets such as mass transportation, trucking, industrial and the military. We do not plan to sell batteries for the aftermarket, retro-fitters, or direct to the consumer at this time."

EnerDel packs are to be manufactured in Indiana.

[ted.lowe]

Hi Bob, et al,

Ted,

During our last EV club meeting, you mentioned you could get Valence Lithium Batteries.  Would you please post specs and prices regarding the battery cells.

First a quick mention of their technology... Their new Epoch looks awesome!  You can build packs in various series and parallel arrangements (to get your desired voltage and amperage) but only use ONE battery management system (BMS @ approx. $450).  The real clever part of the Epoch is modeling the battery pack as a network for management purposes!  Compare their approach to Thundersky :-)

Valence Technology website: http://www.valence.com/

Onto getting them... if you bought them at full price, expect to pay the REALLY HIGH price that all other Lithium batteries cost ($25-30k).   The idea is to try to become a promotional / technology-proving partner with them and get a 'trial' pack for much cheaper.  In early April, i called their Inside/Sales Manager Terri Wilson.  We discussed their Epoch product line and our "hankering" to build our EVs with them.  i mentioned to her that the FVEAA is a large, experienced group of EVers living in the 3rd largest market area in the US, TV and newspaper coverage ... yada yada yada...  She sent me back some detailed pricing in email, the product PDF and a Customer System Specification (CSS) form.   i've uploaded a ZIP file with all three items here:

http://www.fveaa.org/fb/valance-batteries_211.zip. 

What you/we/somebody needs to do is write up an attractive CSS (really focusing on how much the FVEAA can help them market their products) and submit it back to her.  She will review it and get it to a regional team that will evaluate it.

i think we have a pretty good chance to get a substantially reduced price in exchange for our energetic marketing of their Epoch line in the Chicago area.   All the TV, radio and newspaper coverage we've gotten in the last couple of years and the high interest the $4+/gallon gasoline prices have created show that we are the right people in the right place at the right time!  Who wants to run with this idea?  i'll volunteer to work with whomever does, but not "own" the task.  Thanks!

ps.  She said that with increased volume, you can expect the costs to drop sharply (and i asked when that might be, and she guessed within the year)!  We can help this happen!!!

[robert.wood]

I volunteer to write a CSS for my conversion project.  If you can guide me, I'll handle the leg work.

I was planning a 90's GEO (curb weight 1,800) conversion, but maybe I should switch back to the Miata (curb weight 2,200) if I can get the Valence Batteries.

Thanks for the info.

Bob

[larry.backes]

Bob and Ted,

  I will assist on the development of the CSS as well.  A word of caution - I am an engineer so my marketing skill may not be up to par, but I will try to compensate with passion.

Larry

[matt.kenigson]

I'm also interested.  I may write up the eREV project to see if that will stir up some interest.  Did anyone do the math on that pricing and figure out how much a 25-30KW pack would run?  I'll look up those part numbers and figure it out tomorrow if no one else has.  If we have multiple folks here interested, perhaps we can purchase a few packs, depending on price.  I know I can't afford much but would be willing to invest a bit if it's a significant discount.

Matt

[todd.dore]

These batteries look pretty neat, I will admit.  The cost is US $1.60/Watt-hour.  TS Batteries are about 1/2 that price.  Of course, with the CSS, the idea is to get a pack of them at a major discount so that Valence can use our 'test pack' for potential marketing purposes.  It might be worth a try.  Expecially since I don't think there was too enthusiastic a response from Valence from another members' attempts at getting exotic batteries (but I could be confusing the manufactuerer).

The fact is I cannot recall any conversion EVer in the US that has done a conversion for a highway-legal EV that uses any Valence batteries, but there's nothing wrong with being the 1st!

[robert.wood]

It seems like Lithium Phosphate or Titanate batteries are the answer.

1) High safety - no thermal run away
2) Sealed - no Hydrogen leak unless excessive overcharge occurs
3) 1/2 the weight of lead-acid (or better)
4) 2000 cycles at 100% capacity, over 15,000 cycles with 80-85% capacity
5) 100ah has compariable usagable energy storage to 240ah lead acid
6) No battery damage during 100% DOD
7) Better performance at low temperture

Lithium Phosphate batteries may well exceed the life of the vehicle.

I've emailed the Thundry Sky distributor asking about their chemisty, but have no answer.  My understanding is that they are Lithium Cobalt, which would be both dangerous and toxic.   I heard they may have batteries with LiFePO4???   Additionally,  an internet search inidicates that TS has a 20% rate of Dead on Arrival, with no replacements offered.  These batteries are made in China to avoid US Patients.   I've also heard many Chinese battery manfactures use interior chemisty components which could effect quality, energy storage and cell life. 

I've completed a Valence CSS and sent it to Ted and Larry for review.



 

[ted.lowe]

Thanks Bob!

I volunteer to write a CSS for my conversion project.  If you can guide me, I'll handle the leg work.

i reviewed the draft CSS you emailed me.  i uploaded here for others to read too:

http://www.fveaa.org/fb/Valence_Customer_System_Specification_Level_1_rev2.15_212.doc

Here's my feedback FWIW (from trivial to important):

- since you used the FVEAA as a company, list our size as 100+ employees. 

- The FVEAA has been around since 1975 and is one of the largest and most active of the National EAA's 50 some chapters.

The most substantive effort on this project is to get our ducks in a row before contacting Valence to present the most organized and well-thought-out proposal to them so we have the best chance of getting a successful outcome.

Please don't submit the CSS (at least using the FVEAA name) until we have discussed various approaches.

The approach i prefer is to make your conversion an official "FVEAA club car" project (we provide labor and you provide opportunity for members to learn/practice skills).

Last year you know we did the Porsche 944 which was a very good match for the FVEAA because Eric funded the conversion, provided the garage space and it was a "cool" car to convert.  I was the primary Project Lead and organized the weekly sessions and did much "out of session" research and follow-up.   It was very time consuming for me (6+ months of Saturday mornings, etc.), but very rewarding (from many angles: technical, social, professional).  i'd say the project went extremely well all things considered.

Onto the possibility of your car being an official "club car" project:

- Do you want this ?
- Are you willing and able to be the Project Leader ?
- When do you plan to start ?
- What car do you plan to convert?
- What are your requirements for seating, speed and range?  What are your planned usages for your EV?
- What does your garage availabilty look like?
- Are you financially set to fund the project (Valence batteries excluded)?

One question i have is you've only spec'ed out a 100ah pack, which is about 1/2 of what i would expect.

THANKS!

[robert.wood]

I am not interested in doing a club car project as you have described, because I'd like to complete my project within a couple of months.  I'm planning on putting 30+ hours into the car each week until complete.  This is my first conversion, thus I don't have the experience to project lead.  I certainly would be agreeable to an open door project where my work schedule is posted on a calendar.  FVEAA members would be welcome to come and help at any time.

I'm planning on converting a 1990 Mazda Miata manual trans, which with any luck I will have tomorrow.   ICE curb weight 2100lbs.  Valence curb weight ~2300lbs.  Cost $1,500

The car will be used as a commuter car and weekend fun.   The car is a two seater and I hope to have a 40 mile range and 65-70MPH top end.

I'll be doing the conversion at my home in Willowbrook.  My Escape Hybrid will get a drive way parking spot as I do the conversion in my gargage.

I have 15K set aside for the conversion.  My current plan is to get a kit from EV-America for $6,500 including ADC 8" motor, Curtis controller, adapter plate, motor mount, etc...

The GM volt is reported to have a 16KW battery pack with a 40 mile range.  Curb weight is estimated at 3,500lbs.  I can switch the Valence CSS to 122AH which will provide a 15.6KW battery pack with 10 batteries and a curb weight of ~2,300lbs.   My orginal thought was to go for less power so I could afford the batteries if they offer a really good deal.  The 100ah batteries are listed around $2,000 each, while the 122ah batteries are listed at $2,500.   

I won't send anything to Valence without your approval.  You're probably the only one they would listen to anyway.