Beyond Lead Acid Batteries

[robert.wood]

Can anyone help me find batteries other than Lead Acid?

Are Saft STM5-180 batteries still for sale?  How about other NiCd?  Any NiMH?

How about Lithium batteries?  Does anyone sell a decent lithuim pack for an EV, one that I can actually get this year?  Valence Tech said you had to PO at least $500,000 and wait until next year.   A123 won't sell me a pack unless I have a Prius and then drive to Boston for installation.

I really don't want to dis-assemble 50+ DeWalt power tool battery then figure that whole mess out.

Thanks, Bob

 

[abel.partida]

I will be attempting to use NiMH in a project sometime this year, this concept is not very attractive to many, because the battery packs have to be build, it basically depend on the level of effort and risk that you are willing to take. It will be interesting to start exchanging ideas of using NiMH and establish a base of knowledge in this option.

[pat.mitchell]

I'm most interested in the new Altairnano titanate batteries.  

[todd.dore]

There are a few distributors of the Thunder Sky Li-ion batteries here in the US.  Contact member Terry Kane for some info.

Supposedly they are selling better quality stuff, and will sell to individuals.  Pricey, though - about $13-$20k for a decent pack for an EV.

[tim.maxwell]

I am researching overseas options for NiMH as well as these are what I wish to put into my car and the conversions we will be doing down the road for years to come.  I'm also going to be hiring a patent attorney to look over the Chevron owned patents and see if there is some way to start making these in the states as well.  I simple love the lifespan on NiHM and price wise, they appear to be the best return on investment in respect to cost.

[larry.backes]

I too have been looking at more than lead batteries, and sending inquiries to other companies.  Most simply ignore you, or if they respond, they indicate that they are only interested in the OEM market, and are foregoing the consumer market.  Nilar was the exception.  They responsed that they anticipate having something for the consumer market in the October timeframe.  Here is their web site: http://www.nilar.com/

Time will tell.

Larry

[nathan.stowe]

What about making our own packs?  I was talking to a guy who does conversions and he indicated he makes his own LiON packs from A123 spiral wound batteries.  He recommended 100VDC as sufficient instead of the 144 I was asking about because of the reduced weight of the pack and less number of batteries in series.  For round numbers, he figures 3 to $4k for such a pack, which if it is true, sign me up!   I forget the energy stored, but in talking he figured it should get ~100 miles in my rx7 with 9" dc motor and 500 amp controller.

I am just starting to research LiON, but the price above seems to be really low considering the A123 pack for the prius is 10k.  Is the prius pack something special?  Maybe the prius pack uses the batteries that are not supposed to catch fire when crushed, and the others quoted above are the basic kind?  I have also experienced the "not for you, you non FORD/GM type, thanks and call back in two years".

[nathan.stowe]

I just received a reply from everspring (thunder sky) about their
 
   We do not sell battery packs.  Our patented lithion ion batteries are high capacity cells ranging from 40Ah to 800Ah.
   Lithium ion batteries have a max of 4V.  Our batteries are rated at 3.2V.  For 144V you would need 45 units connected in serial.
   You can find our technical information and pricing on our website (shipment and insurance not included - ex-factory Shenzhen, China):
       http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
   We also offer volume pricing discount.  Details can be found:
      http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm

   Feel free to contact me if you need further details or assistance
   Best regards,
   Peter.    peter-lee  -at- everspring  dot net

so a 144v 90Ah pack is ~$8.1k + shipping + charger. or ~$5.6k for a 100v pack.  1/3 the weight of PbA, and 1000 cycles.   (I thought they were supposed to be more).   This is bit more than I am ready to pay, but maybe it helps someone else out.  Also, I am not sure if these are even appropriate.  I am just learning.

[robert.wood]

Hey Nathan,

Thanks for the info on Thunder Sky batteries.

3.2v @ 90 Ah x 32 batteries =   9.2 kw
3kg x 2.20462 x 32 batteries = 221 lbs
41 watts per lb

Sounds possible!

Here is what I've heard from other companies:

Altairnano              no reply (no)
EnerDel                 sent email yesterday, requested to be a beta tester
Cobasys                get lost (no)
Johnson Controls     Did you say you were with Chevy? click.... (no)
A123                     We don't ship batteries to just anyone!!! (no)
SaftAmerica            Found product specs, waiting to here where to buy.  I think I'm now an aircraft  repair shop with 20 planes to over haul.

Valence                requires a $500,000 PO and shipping next year!
I think there were more but my brain is at 90% DoD.

Bob

[robert.wood]

The July FVEAA meeting was extremely informative.  Jerry Jackson's presentation about the state of battery technology was excellent, providing great insight into current battery technology and current road blocks.

The presentation included a photo of a laptop computer lithium battery fire.  I would like to have also know if these fires have been caused by faulty manufacturing.

The presenation got me to thinging about fire risk on lithium batteries vs gas automobile fires.  I found this article about auto fires in 2008:

"In 2005 alone, there were more than 266,000 car fires reported to various agencies across the country. In these accidents, 520 people died as a result of the fire. Automobile fires are one of the more common causes of fire-related property damage. In fact, there is one motor-vehicle fire roughly every minute and a half in the United States alone.

Cars have a tendency to ignite as there are so many things that are flammable. For starters, gasoline and oil are exceptionally flammable and are known to ignite. Upholstery and other solid combustibles are commonly the start of a fire as well. The detonators in air bags, electrical short circuits, and a hot exhaust system can all be sources of ignition."  Joseph Devine

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Joseph_Devine

Wikipedia claims: The United States is home to the largest passenger vehicle market of any country,[1] which is a consequence of the fact that it has the largest Gross Domestic Product of any country in the world.[2] Overall, there were an estimated 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the United States according to a 2006 DOT study.[3]

That makes ~ 1 of every 1,000 cars catch fires each year.

Lithium battery fires are great attention grabbers, so they make for good news stories.  I'm having a real problem putting my hands on real numbers.   I know one company alone makes 50 million lithium batteries a year, so they must have 250 million on the market.  How many lithium batteries are being used in the US today, billions to be sure.  How many have caught on fire, hundreds...  many are caused by cheap knock off companies after a quick buck.

Argonne National Labs says that Lithium Titanate batteries have excellent safety and perfomance while being an inexpensive technology:
www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/461.pdf

EnerDel and Atairnano both make Lithium Titanate batteries today!  EnerDel claims they will make there packs available in 2010 model year cars for around $1,500.  Sign me up to beta test right now.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news9.28a.html

We need to find a way to make this technology available to our club.  Our personal tax dollars support building this technology, why can't we use it!!!!!

Bob








 

[gerald.jackson]

Bob,

Thanks for the complement.  I read with interest your latest message, and would like to take the opportunity to comment a couple of the points you made.

First, on the scale of fuels and energy sources availble to humanity, gasoline is remarkably inflammable and almost never explosive.  This will not be true if we ever move into a hydrogen economy!

Second, the flaming of lithium-ion batteries currently available on the market is not a statistical phenomenon nor a result of manufacturing defects ... as I showed last night, there is a very real thermal instability in this class of chemistry.  It is true that some forms of lithium ion chemistry have reduced this effect, such as lithium phosphate and tungstate, but those chemistries have much lower energy density (at least so far).  If you pull to much current out of a lithium ion battery, or charge it too fast, it WILL flame each and every time.

Third, in talking with EV oldtimers and reading the other forums, smoking cables and vaporizing battery leads is much more than a 1:1000 occurrence.

Fourth, I read with interest your link to EnerDel.  If you read the press release very carefully, you will not see any data on production rates or volume estimates.  In comparing this release with the information presented at the battery summit, I will bet a box of donuts that they have only produced bench-top tungstate batteries, and have not yet started a production line.  Note the word "hope" in the document.  That leads me to believe that they will produce these batteries if they find an investor who will fund the startup costs.  As I am sure you know, there is a BIG difference between a proof-of-principle prototype and units coming off a production line.

I wholeheartedly endorse your desire to get signed up for the beta-test models.  If the Tesla Roadster is any indication though, I would not pay money up front unless they agree to pay you the interest.  They may be holding your money long enough for that interest to add up!

Keep charging forward
Gerry Jackson

[robert.wood]

Jerry, thanks for the additional feedback.  Sounds like there are issues to resolve.  Maybe we can talk sometime.

Today I talked to Terry Copeland the CEO of Altairnano.   He hooked be up with a guy who actually discussed the batteries, cost and availability.  They will sell us batteries.

Altair has two cells available for purchase:

11 ah, 2.3 nominal volts - on the shelf.
samples = $100
1,000 batteries @ $60-70 each (estimated)

50 ah, 2.3 nominal volts - samples available, larger orders 8 week lead time
samples = $250
1,000 batteries @ $210-230 each (estimated)

I've inquired into the possibility of a large group order in the $1 per watt range.  I'll let you know what they say.  Altair did sell a large stationary battery pack for grid storage at $1 per watt, which has been delivered.

[robert.wood]

Jerry,

If I buy a 50ah, 2.3 volt Altairnano battery sample, can you help be create a load test exploring thermal runaway?  Would a 30 minute discharge be sufficent to test flamability?

Thanks, Bob
 

[tim.maxwell]

group buy-in through an already existing business and or corporation can get this done, and I am aggressively working on it.

Tim Maxwell

Sound Performance

We need to find a way to make this technology available to our club.  Our personal tax dollars support building this technology, why can't we use it!!!!!

Bob
 

[larry.backes]

Bob,

  Great job shaking down the info on Altair.  If the batts are as good as their web site says, this could be a great alternative.  Is there a specifications sheets available?  Keep us in the loop as you learn more.

Thanks again,

Larry